7th Ed. Combat Question

Combat rules discussion. Beat them up, blow them up, burn them up, blow them away. If it ruins someone's day, this is probably the forum to talk about it.
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7th Ed. Combat Question

Post by SamS » Mon Mar 10, 2014 2:10 am

I have a question which I'm sure it's been discussed to death. But I'm not sure I understand all of the combat rules. I don't know, maybe I'm make it harder than should be.
One of my questions is when should you use the Build modifier?
My next question is a little harder to convey.
So, I'm going to refer to the 7th Ed. Quick-Start rules page 15.
The Example is a ghoul fighting in close combat with a character named Brian.
It says that the ghoul gets 3 attacks per round the first one is made and Brian attempts to dodge but fails.
Then is says that the ghoul does a second attack and Brian fights back.
The ghoul gets 3 attack per round. Brian is a normal human and does not get 3 attacks per round.
My question is why does Brian get to fight back on the second attack?
Does this mean it doesn't matter how many attack the monster gets you can attempt to dodge all of them?
The example doesn't go into the 3rd attack so we don't know what happens next.

I have more question I will hold off on those for right now.
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Re: 7th Ed. Combat Question

Post by caddy1071 » Sat Jul 26, 2014 12:32 am

SamS wrote:I have a question which I'm sure it's been discussed to death. But I'm not sure I understand all of the combat rules. I don't know, maybe I'm make it harder than should be.
One of my questions is when should you use the Build modifier?
...
My question is why does Brian get to fight back on the second attack?
Does this mean it doesn't matter how many attack the monster gets you can attempt to dodge all of them?
The example doesn't go into the 3rd attack so we don't know what happens next.

I have more question I will hold off on those for right now.
Hi! Guess this is very late to the party, but I did a pretty deep delve to run 7th Ed at a convention this year, so I guess I'll fess up what I know. :p

Build modifer:
For hand to hand combat maneuvers (defined as "anything other than inflicting physical harm"), you get a penalty die for each build modifier above yours. If the opponents build is 3 build modifiers over the attacker, the maneuver is ineffective.

Build also comes into play for vehicles and chases - they go into it in detail (well, as much detail as you can have before release ;) ) on the Good Friends of Jackson Elias podcast. I believe it's between eps 7 and 12 where they do all the rules examples for 7th Ed.

Multiple attacks:
Hrm - you got a good point there - that's pretty broken. you'd think that would give an advantage to the player giving them multiple defense attacks they would not normally get. Weird - I think that's one to bring up to the authors for clarification. Nice catch!

tty!
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Re: 7th Ed. Combat Question

Post by Keeper Jon » Sat Jul 26, 2014 4:18 am

I'm reviewing an advance copy of the 7e rules, and in the combat section it says that if person is aware of an attack against their person, then the target of that attack may choose to dodge or fight back the on-coming attack. So, in 7e they are trying to integrate the combat system to make it more realistic. To do so, in my opinion, will also make the mechanics of combat much more crunchy and will result in a slow-down of play at the table.

So combat will be opposed rolls.... either "Attack vs Dodge" or "Attack vs Fight Back". With the winner of the opposed roll winning that round of the fight.

As I'm reading the rules, it looks like a normal human investigator character may do BOTH a dodge and a fight back in a single combat round versus an opponent. So, in that example with the ghoul that has three attacks per round, the investigator tried to dodge the first attack, (Dodge is now done and used for this combat round), then he tried to fight back the second attack, (Fight Back is now done and used for this combat round), and for the third attack in this round, the ghoul gets the advantage of attacking an opponent considered to be "outnumbered", meaning that the ghoul gets a Bonus Die on it's third attack.

Wow. That sounds harsh to me, but CoC has always been lethal as hell.

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Re: 7th Ed. Combat Question

Post by fallingtower » Sat Jul 26, 2014 7:32 pm

I think Jon has it right.
I don't have them near me, but I playtested Cthulhu Dark Ages 7e and from what I grasped and liked about the rules most is the use of Bonus and Penalty dies.
It would definitely be a situation to use the Bonus and Penalty dies in the Ghoul 3 attack scenario. If your character is fighting off an attacking ghoul they would be rolling Penalty dice (I think adding an additional die for each successive action). With ties going to the defender when dodging and ties going to the attacker if they decide to fight back. With the Penalty dice it makes brutally effective sense.
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Re: 7th Ed. Combat Question

Post by caddy1071 » Tue Aug 05, 2014 12:28 am

fallingtower wrote:I think Jon has it right.
I don't have them near me, but I playtested Cthulhu Dark Ages 7e and from what I grasped and liked about the rules most is the use of Bonus and Penalty dies.
It would definitely be a situation to use the Bonus and Penalty dies in the Ghoul 3 attack scenario. If your character is fighting off an attacking ghoul they would be rolling Penalty dice (I think adding an additional die for each successive action). With ties going to the defender when dodging and ties going to the attacker if they decide to fight back. With the Penalty dice it makes brutally effective sense.
Hi! Thanks for cracking the code there, Jon! I had "one dodge per attack" in my mind, but I was mixing up with the ranged rules. :p So, I was always assuming they could dodge one per round - but, I guess that's a different animal with melee. (Which I like.)

I guess although I can see it as being a bit more crunchy with extra rolls, you're also "trading blows" a lot more often, which I think may resolve things quicker in some circumstances? I'm definitely not a seasoned CoC Keeper by any means, but you'd think the opposed rolls could keep the combat rapid fire and finish it off more quickly (one way or another) overall. I guess there is the crunch of keeping all the rolls and bonus/penalty dies straight, but I really think the mechanic adds a lot of drama and tension to combat. Things could look helpless (or certain, for that matter!), then you could fight back and turn the tables on some lucky rolls.

I would say that "outnumbered" is perhaps not well worded. "Overwhelmed" would probably be a better name for the mechanic. (In the ghoul case, you're not outnumbered, just outmatched.) Anyway, my brain note there is Outnumbered is determined by number of attacks, not number of opponents, which would more logically fit the name.

I also >REALLY< dig the levels of success vs. straight rolls. You can have some rolls that don't necessarily beat the opponent's rolls, but due to your training, you may still succeeded. That adds some drama as well.

Fallingtower - Yeah, I don't think the "Outnumbered" rule is complete enough without imposing penalty dice as you point out. It's great attackers get bonus dies upon you, but realism-wise, I agree things should get much worse for you the more actions you are involved in if the system is allowing you to fight back or dodge for every attack. Otherwise, the defender seems to be getting a lot more benefit from multiple attackers than they should.

Did you see that "penalty dice after successive actions" rule somewhere? Or was that a house rule? I'm not finding anything in the Quickstart rules. I like that concept - if the defender is getting overrun, there should be massive disadvantages to whatever he may do.

Is that published somewhere?

Thanks!
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Re: 7th Ed. Combat Question

Post by caddy1071 » Tue Aug 05, 2014 12:40 am

And for those who are interested in this thread and will be at Gencon 2014, a PSA.... ;)

I will be running Scott Dorward's "Blackwater Creek" for 7th Ed at Gencon this year. I put it in late, about two days before pre-purchasing closed, and the event coordinator missed it. I checked in recently, thinking I missed the boat, the event coordinator approved it, so it looks like I'm running it in the Marriott Ballroom at 11:00 AM on Thursday. :p

Game ID Event Title Start Time Duration
RPG1466799 Blackwater Creek Thu @ 11:00 AM 4 hrs

My thought is to butt it up against the Alumni Dinner, so we could finish up and head over to RAM for a few brews. :p

So, if anybody is interested, please join up and we'll have some madcap fun. :p Definitely would love to share it with forum folks if they'd be so inclined. :)

Hope to see you all at Gencon!

Tty!
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Re: 7th Ed. Combat Question

Post by MikeM » Tue Aug 05, 2014 7:35 am

Hi

you have pretty much got it covered - here's the low down:

Outnumbered rule - When a character is outnumbered by the opposition, the character is at a disadvantage. Once a character has either fought back or dodged in the present combat round, all subsequent melee attacks on them are made with one bonus die. This does not apply to attacks made using firearms. Characters and monsters that have more than one attack per round may also dodge or fight back that number of times before the bonus die is applied. Thus a ghoul with three attacks can fight back three times before its attackers gain a bonus die. Some Mythos entities can never be outnumbered by investigators.

- we went back and forth on whether the initiating attacker should get a bonus or whether the defender should get a penalty - imposing both on the same combat just means the attacker is more likely to win the combat round - which is exactly what happens if you simply grant them a bonus (without the defender also getting a penalty) - also the attacker is more likely to roll an Extreme result with a bonus die (max damage) - so for ease of play, speed, and that the effect is just about the same, we went with the attacker getting a bonus. If you prefer the notion of the defender getting a penalty instead of the attacker getting a bonus then fine - just swap them around (however the attacker's chance of getting an Extreme result is naturally diminished) - but from the player's perspective, its much more frightening facing a monster with a bonus die!

Build is used as described above - for combat manoeuvres, and for chases. It's also a short hand as to the mass (STR&SIZ) - so a Build 0 human is smaller/less sturdy than a Build 1 human, and so on.

A character gets to initiate one action per round (if human), but they also get to dodge OR fight back in reaction to attacks upon them (in melee) - this is where the outnumbered number comes in (see above). Overwhelmed is another good name for it!

Through lots of play test experience, we've found the opposed rolls for combat speed things up - both roll, compare results and decide who won that 'combat sequence' and apply damage or not etc. When a player gets a bonus die in combat it's a big thing - and players always seem to enjoy having the second dice (a added sense of excitement and possibility of winning!) I have a red d10 for penalties and a white d10 for bonuses.

Mike
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Re: 7th Ed. Combat Question

Post by fallingtower » Tue Aug 05, 2014 11:43 am

Mike...here's something I'm curious about.

How does 7e handle automatic weapon fire?

The old +5% per bullet rule never quite felt right to me.
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Re: 7th Ed. Combat Question

Post by MikeM » Tue Aug 05, 2014 8:37 pm

Hi

Automatic fire - I'm not going to cover it in detail here (there's a rulebook coming that'll answer all the questions ; )

Suffice to say - auto fire is divided into volleys - the number of bullets in a volley is determined by the firearm skill of the user (40% means 4 bullets in a volley, 70% means 7) - the firer says how many volleys they fire (up to max ammo of gun) - but the more volleys means more penalties and/or increase in difficulty level. Burst fire is normally 3 (sometimes 2) bullets and simply counts a single volley. Extreme successes mean all bullets hit (50% do max damage), otherwise 50% of bullets hit the desired target/s at normal damage. This is a sketch overview - obviously theres a bit more detail to all of this in the rulebook.

Firing a single or couple of volleys is usually best practice. In practice the auto fire rules work well, once you get the notion of volleys in your head. After a couple of uses, it's second nature.

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Re: 7th Ed. Combat Question

Post by fallingtower » Tue Aug 05, 2014 8:41 pm

It's nice to know that the auto fire rules have been 'fixed'.

I was never a fan of the past rules, which encouraged folks to fire as many bullets as possible. Which encouraged rampant Rambo-ism.

Cthanx Mike
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