MU Podcast 053 - Fudging, Flubbing, and Failing

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trevlix
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Re: MU Podcast 053 - Fudging, Flubbing, and Failing

Post by trevlix » Thu Apr 10, 2014 3:32 pm

Dr. Gerard wrote:I'm thinking about buying the On The Brink expansion -- got any experience with that? Would be nice to get a little extra mileage out of the game. I fear once we beat the 6-epidemic expert mode, enthusiasm might flag. I also hear that Forbidden Island and Flash Point are also good cöop games.
I have On the Brink, but have not gotten it to the table yet - the normal Pandemic is hard enough. I know one of the scenarios in it adds a bioterrorist, but I don't know if that would work with 2 players.

Forbidden Island is like Pandemic-lite, but still lots of fun. Forbidden Desert just came out too, but I have not played it. Check out Tales of the Arabian Nights. Its not coop, but it plays more like a Choose Your Own Adventure and is lots of fun.
Dr. Gerard wrote:I offered a bunch of possible genre flavors to the kids (and dad), and they overwhelmingly picked "Viking horror" from a list. So I ran it using Cthulhu Dark on Roll20. One of the constraints on our session was that I only had 2 hours to introduce them to the entire concept of role play. So I chose CD, because they could quickly invent their own character concepts, with no character sheets or stats to talk them through, and we could start playing about 5 minutes into the session. ...
Thats awesome! Glad its going well. That type of situation can go any number of ways.
Dr. Gerard wrote:Fate Accelerated sounds very interesting. Ever run it for horror? There's a game called Hobomancer that uses the rules-light QAGS system that I might also try with them, just to introduce a little more recent historical flavor. I'm not sure what kind of images 13 year olds have available to dial in to the 1930s, but at least train hopping is something iconic.
I have not run any FAE games, yet, but am creating a Gravity Falls version for my kids to see if I can get them into RPGs.
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Re: MU Podcast 053 - Fudging, Flubbing, and Failing

Post by PirateLawyer » Thu Apr 10, 2014 8:15 pm

The Pandemic expansion is a big improvement. It contains revised roles and new ones to play. The bioterrorist variant is optional and doesn't see much play in my group.

As far as dice fudging - I am adamantly against it. I believe I have heard it said by Scott Glancy and others from Pagan Publishing back in the day that the dice represent the cold, uncaring nature of the universe, and I completely subscribe to that belief. If I call for a roll as Keeper, all bets are off and the dice will dictate what happens next. And my players know I won't pull any punches and they respect that. So they fear the dice and do their best to make sure they don't have to roll them! Which is as it should be.

If there is one thing I hope to see in the 7E rules, it is advice for new Keepers on when and how to call for dice rolls.

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Re: MU Podcast 053 - Fudging, Flubbing, and Failing

Post by KeeperMurph » Fri Apr 11, 2014 3:03 pm

I think we should mention that fudging open rolls is something we are all against. The main topic was the fudging of private GM rolls. I agree that open rolls should stay as they are.

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Re: MU Podcast 053 - Fudging, Flubbing, and Failing

Post by PirateLawyer » Fri Apr 11, 2014 5:28 pm

KeeperMurph wrote:I think we should mention that fudging open rolls is something we are all against. The main topic was the fudging of private GM rolls. I agree that open rolls should stay as they are.

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My comment above failed to explicitly cover hidden Keeper rolls, but I feel the same way about them. That's just my stance on things. YMMV, obviously.

As Keeper I can adjust almost anything else in a scenario on the fly, but I think the dice are sacrosanct. My job as Keeper is to be prepared to know what I will do if the dice come out a certain way and roll with the punches.

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Re: MU Podcast 053 - Fudging, Flubbing, and Failing

Post by Dr. Gerard » Sat Apr 12, 2014 2:48 am

PirateLawyer wrote:The Pandemic expansion is a big improvement. It contains revised roles and new ones to play. The bioterrorist variant is optional and doesn't see much play in my group.

As far as dice fudging - I am adamantly against it. I believe I have heard it said by Scott Glancy and others from Pagan Publishing back in the day that the dice represent the cold, uncaring nature of the universe, and I completely subscribe to that belief. If I call for a roll as Keeper, all bets are off and the dice will dictate what happens next. And my players know I won't pull any punches and they respect that. So they fear the dice and do their best to make sure they don't have to roll them! Which is as it should be.

If there is one thing I hope to see in the 7E rules, it is advice for new Keepers on when and how to call for dice rolls.
Yeah, I hear they somehow added some huevos to the Operations Expert, and other roles with cool powers. For two people, which at this point is usually the extent of our game group, we always groan when one of us gets the OE. So far, I would say Medic+Scientist is our favorite combo.

I would agree about the thoughts on 7E advice. I think a lot of situations arise in CoC that are better off without invoking the mechanics, and I don't necessarily think intuition is the best guidestar on its own.
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Re: MU Podcast 053 - Fudging, Flubbing, and Failing

Post by DavFlamerock » Sun Apr 13, 2014 3:23 pm

I think another important thing to consider when fudging rolls is the group you're in. Obviously some people prefer a more "GM=God" approach, allowing the GM to manipulate the story and mechanics to create the most fun experience and story for the players, while others prefer to stick with the game rules because that keeps them on a similar footing with the players as far as story authority. Both are obviously legit--and I should mention that this is something Cthulhu has over some other systems (*dnd*) where it's expected the GM doesn't change any rules since the players will be using them to their own advantage :p

That said, a "GM=God" approach really works best when you're with a group of players with established trust. If I'm playing with a group of new players (to me) and/or a convention group, I feel like you really have to err on the side of sticking to the rules and rolls, unless you can do it well without letting on to the players (extraneous dice rolls may be effective in this; I'll admit while it sounds like a sweet tactic I never think to roll anything unless I need to since I'm so focused on storytelling). Recently I ran a D&D campaign for a bunch of my friends at college, and there I was able to manipulate and fudge anything and everything I wanted, because the players trusted me to have their best interests in mind. I suspect a lot of people who do this kind of fudging & manipulating of rules are in a similar setting, where their players are all friends with whom they have a high level of trust. Chad's point is worth noting for new Keepers or Keepers playing with new people, since sticking to the rules everyone knows is a good way to establish trust with your players and keep them from feeling like they're only playing at your whim.

As for Pandemic, I have it and On the Brink, and have played both a lot. Such a great game! I 100% recommend the expansion, since it adds a ton of interesting new player options and allows you to spice up the infection with the two alternate modes (Bioterrorist is also fun, but a bit of a different experience). The Mutation essentially just adds a fifth disease to the mix, which can definitely complicate things, and Virulent Strain (my favorite) turns one of the four diseases into something that's actively fighting back against your attempts to quell it, which (beyond increasing the difficulty of course) also makes it feel like the game is escalating even if you get off to a good start. It also adds tons of replay value, since the Virulent Strain changes each game, and the attributes it has also change each game.

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Re: MU Podcast 053 - Fudging, Flubbing, and Failing

Post by Howard » Mon Apr 14, 2014 9:37 pm

KeeperMurph wrote:I think we should mention that fudging open rolls is something we are all against.
When you say "ALL", I think you mean every gamer from the dawn of gaming. That's common sense.

Fudging(behind the screen/under your cupped hand)is a necessary part of the game. If you have played RPGs enough, you know this. Ideally, you never have to do it, but unfortunately, on occasion, a situation calls for it. When you fudge, try and make it smooth and discreet, don't overact and try to win the Acadamy award. Experienced players and other Keepers who are playing have a sixth sense for detecting the fudge, even when their not trying. Usually they don't care for the sake of the group having a good time. To Players who think fudging by the keeper is cheating: they are not fudging to screw you, but to help you, or their girlfriend. Fudging by players(online actual play guys using the honor system) is cheating, but if you agree to the honor system, that means you don't care. If fudging is evil in your mind, try board games. Cheers for the Video Game links.

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Re: MU Podcast 053 - Fudging, Flubbing, and Failing

Post by sirlarkins » Tue Apr 15, 2014 8:25 pm

This is one of those episodes where I keep wanting to jump into the conversation! So even though I'm not totally done listening, I just want to offer my $0.02 on what I've heard so far.

I totally get where Chad is coming from, because I had a similar experience in terms of going from fudging my rolls a lot in service of furthering a perceived narrative to never fudging at all, at least when it comes to games like Call of Cthulhu or Pendragon. This happened back when I was running a Pendragon campaign in 2006 via OpenRPG, which was a chat-based virtual tabletop. It had a dice-rolling client that forced me to make all my rolls in the open, and I found that that did two things:

1) It made the players' triumphs that much sweeter. Everyone knew exactly what the dice rolls were (including target numbers, which were displayed with the macro output), so they knew that if, say, they came out of a combat with 1 hit point to their name, it wasn't because I knocked a couple points of damage off in order to make for a better story.

2) It taught me to appreciate the oracular power of the dice in terms of helping to guide the story, and this made running games more fun for me as the GM--I've found that I love being surprised by unexpected twists that come out of dice rolls, twists that many times wouldn't have occurred had I fudged a roll instead of letting it stand.

In short, I've found the enjoyment levels for myself as well as my players have increased quite a bit since I started letting the dice fall where they may. Has it resulted in some frustration from TPKs or scenarios grinding to a halt from lack of clues? Sure. But that in itself is a story, every bit as much as going from point A to point Z and fighting the big bad at the end, and I've found players reminisce about their cock-ups as much as they do their triumphs.

Having said that, I do understand the occasional situational need to fudge rolls, either because of the gaming environment or the rules you're using. Jon's point about using fudging to help pace a convention game made total sense to me, for example. And right now one of the two games I'm running is 2nd edition AD&D, but with only got two PCs in the group. It's old-school D&D, and so the mechanics can be pretty deadly, and often arbitrarily so (even when you've got a "balanced" group of 4-6 players) so with two PCs I've found I've had to do some slight fudging (along the lines of what Murph does) just to keep things going and not have a TPK every session, particularly at the lower levels. Now that the PCs are approaching that mid-level sweet spot, I've hardly had to do any at all. (They haven't encountered any save-or-die or level-draining attacks, but when/if they do, I most definitely will not fudge those rolls, because they're supposed to put the fear of god into the players. But I digress.) But with pretty much every other game I run, I obey the dice as much as the players.

A quick anecdote: I use a screen to hide my notes, but I don't go out of my way to hide my dice rolls. I ran a Deadlands campaign last year, and at one point one of my players said something along the lines of, "What's really cool is that I can see when you roll the dice, you stick with what you roll." At the time, I had no idea she'd been sitting at a spot where she could see my rolls. If I'd been fudging, she would've seen it, and that would have really taken away from her overall fun. Point is, you might think you're in a position that your players won't be able to tell you're fudging, but you never really know.

At any rate, I do a podcast with a buddy of mine, and for our latest episode we discussed Trail of Cthulhu and its narrative-driven mechanics. ToC is quite up-front about endorsing shifting target numbers based on how important it is for PCs to get past a particular obstacle, as well as, of course, giving PCs clues automatically. Actually, if you all have enough experience with it to be able to talk about it, I'd love to hear an episode devoted to ToC in general, just to hear your collective thoughts on the system and how it compares to CoC.

Thanks for another great episode!

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Re: MU Podcast 053 - Fudging, Flubbing, and Failing

Post by caddy1071 » Thu Apr 17, 2014 7:15 am

Dr. Gerard wrote:
PirateLawyer wrote:The Pandemic expansion is a big improvement. It contains revised roles and new ones to play. The bioterrorist variant is optional and doesn't see much play in my group.

As far as dice fudging - I am adamantly against it. I believe I have heard it said by Scott Glancy and others from Pagan Publishing back in the day that the dice represent the cold, uncaring nature of the universe, and I completely subscribe to that belief. If I call for a roll as Keeper, all bets are off and the dice will dictate what happens next. And my players know I won't pull any punches and they respect that. So they fear the dice and do their best to make sure they don't have to roll them! Which is as it should be.

If there is one thing I hope to see in the 7E rules, it is advice for new Keepers on when and how to call for dice rolls.
Yeah, I hear they somehow added some huevos to the Operations Expert, and other roles with cool powers. For two people, which at this point is usually the extent of our game group, we always groan when one of us gets the OE. So far, I would say Medic+Scientist is our favorite combo.

I would agree about the thoughts on 7E advice. I think a lot of situations arise in CoC that are better off without invoking the mechanics, and I don't necessarily think intuition is the best guidestar on its own.
Pandemic: agreed - get the On the Brink Expansion - lots of new roles and options for special event cards which definitely spices up play quite a bit. We haven't gotten to the bioterrorist or mutant strain parts yet - we have enough trouble trying to win 1 in 20 games. ;) Don't know if they have it in the latest re-release, but the smaller pieces and petri dishes for the components in On The Brink just rocks in general - great stuff. :)

If you're looking for another good cooperative game, Shadows Over Camelot is pretty cool as well. Basically move efficiency and resource ("evil") management in a bunch of mini-games against a brutal effects deck. It's obviously very fantasy themed, but it's a challenging game and a lot of fun.

Fudging - I'm going old school with this one - if it's enhances for the enjoyment of the players and creates a better story, use everything in the arsenal. As you have pointed out, it can't be overused or manipulative, but fudging at points of inspiration for a better story outcome is totally legit in my view as a tool in the toolkit.

tty!
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Re: MU Podcast 053 - Fudging, Flubbing, and Failing

Post by Shannon Mac » Thu Apr 17, 2014 10:02 am

I think that no good Hook threw me under the bus. :buttkick: :P

About halfway through the podcast. More later, playas. :yay:
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