MUP 093 - Elbow Deep in Chickens & the Art of PvP Persuasion

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MUP 093 - Elbow Deep in Chickens & the Art of PvP Persuasion

Post by Keeper Dan » Mon Jan 11, 2016 1:18 am

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After a winter hiatus, Keepers Dan, Murph and Chad are back for Episode 93 to chat about ways to handle players using social skills against each other in Call of Cthulhu. Jon's excuse for missing this episode: "Sorry guys, I'm elbow deep in chickens." This episode was recorded on January 4, 2016.

Campus Crier
Check out this interesting new RPG called Shadows over Sol.

Arkham Gazette #3 is now available to backers as well as through retail channels such as DriveThruRPG. There are also some favorable reviews of the issue here and here.

Cthulhu Tales is a new storytelling card game from Cubicle 7.
“Players use the symbols on the cards to determine whether a card can be played, and its effect on the Narrator's tale. A die introduces an element of luck into the proceedings – perhaps that Viscous Black Slime was merely a passing detail, or perhaps its arrival was the precursor to something far more sinister and madness inducing…”
New from Golden Goblin Press: Goblin on Bourbon Street - A stand-alone scenario by Oscar Rios.
Four people are dead of an apparent wild animal attack in the French Quarter of New Orleans the police are quick to close this case. If that weren’t strange enough one of the dead is reported to be a Mordechai Whateley of Massachusetts.
Fred Lubnow has delivered on the successful Journal of Lovecraftian Science Kickstarter before Christmas.

Badger fulfilled the Feed the Shoggoth orders.

Shadows of Atlantis for Achtung! Cthulhu - looks good.
“From Modiphius Entertainment comes Shadows of Atlantis, a campaign for their Achtung! Cthulhu setting. Currently released as a 330 page PDF, the campaign takes place during the early days of World War II, promising to take "your investigators to the four corners of the earth and beyond". Dual-statted for both the Call of Cthulhu and Savage Worlds systems."

What Have We Been Playing Lately?
After building a new computer, Dan has been playing a little Starcraft 2 and Fallout: New Vegas. Chad played a game of Dread with non-gamer family during a holiday break, using a modified version of Bryson Springs, a CoC scenario from No Security by RPPR host Caleb Stokes. Chad also played a round of Arkham Horror (vs. Azathoth). Murph got a Playstation 3 for Christmas has been devouring Skyrim and The Last of Us.


In Memorium
Bob, a founding member of Murph's AP group, Arseholes, passed away after a long battle with multiple myeloma. Bob, we miss you.

[caption align=aligncenter" width=300]Image Arsehole crew, left to right: Nigel, Bob, Murph, Max and the arm of Tristan.[/caption]


Card Catalog
This episode we revisit the Ambient Sound Mixer site, which has exploded since last time we covered it. So much audio awesomeness!

Cryptocurium Spotlight
The The February edition of the Parcel of Terror will be “A Nightmare on Elm Street” themed box!

Show Topic: Using Social Skills Against Another Player

We talk about ways to handle player-versus-player use of social skills like Persuade, Fast Talk, Charm and Intimidate.
(From MU forum regular Wordcraftian) The situation that was being discussed involved a player who wanted to roll his persuade skill to convince another player to do something they did not want to do. The GM did not allow it because he claimed it would rob the other player of his character's free will. I would like to hear this topic discussed from a Call of Cthulhu perspective. Do you think the GM made the right call in disallowing the roll? Or should the persuade skill be interpreted differently to avoid allowing a player with an aptitude for persuasion becoming a puppet master of sorts?
The three hosts arrive at a "best practice" consensus during the show, though we'd still love to hear listener's approaches to this issue and would love to revise based on feedback.

Here's the method we discussed:

Offer a choice among options. Both characters should be in agreement about how to resolve the PvP skills before the scene starts.
  1. No dice rolls are involved. The influencing player-character simply tries to convince / charm / fast talk / intimidate another player-character using dialogue. Let the scene play out for a bit, and then ask the target player to make a decision based on the influencing player’s performance. The influencing player might mention the level of the skill that their character is using to help with context. Note: it’s good to make it about the characters’ interaction instead of about a player’s social skills. E.g “Does your character find this argument to be compelling?”
  2. Roll the bones. Both players must agree to the terms before any dice hit the table, and agree to live by the result. Let the dialogue play out for a bit, and then ask the players to make an opposed die roll. The influencing character uses an appropriate social skill (in 7E, Fast Talk, Charm, Persuade or Intimidate), and the defending character uses a skill or stat that works best for the situation. Intelligence is a good default. Fast Talk vs. Psychology would also work well, for example. If the character has appropriate expertise in the topic of discussion (Biology, Tracking, Accounting, etc.), that skill could also be used to defend.
Reviewing how to use opposed rolls:

In 6th Edition or below, use the Resistance Table (in 6th Edition, pg. 55). The influencing player divides their skill by 5 to arrive at the Active Characteristic. The defending character uses their Intelligence attribute as the Passive Characteristic, or divides an appropriate defense skill by 5. The influencing player then must roll under the number indicated on the table. This is not truly an opposed roll.

In 7th Edition, each player rolls against the appropriate skill. Whoever achieves the highest level of success wins. Ties go to the player with the highest skill or attribute.
  • Fumble: the roll is 100. If the roll required for success is less than 50, a roll of 96 or over is a fumble.
  • Failure: the roll is above the character’s skill or characteristic (but not a fumble).
  • Regular success: the roll is equal to or below the character’s skill or characteristic.
  • Hard success: the roll is equal to or below a half of the character’s skill or characteristic.
  • Extreme success (a.k.a. an Impale): the roll is equal to or below a fifth of the character’s skill or characteristic.
  • Critical success: a roll of 01.
In the new Delta Green rules, whoever rolls highest without exceeding their skill threshold wins the opposed roll.
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Re: MUP 093 - Elbow Deep in Chickens & the Art of PvP Persua

Post by Bootlegger » Mon Jan 11, 2016 4:56 am

Great episode, as usual.

I'm truly sorry for the loss of your friend and offer my sincere condolences.

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Re: MUP 093 - Elbow Deep in Chickens & the Art of PvP Persua

Post by Scott Dorward » Mon Jan 11, 2016 10:04 am

That's really news sad about Bob. He was a lovely bloke. My condolences to everyone who knew him.

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Re: MUP 093 - Elbow Deep in Chickens & the Art of PvP Persua

Post by MikeM » Tue Jan 12, 2016 10:59 am

PvP - see 7e Rulebook page 60 - Interpersonal Skills: Disambiguation.

This covers PvP social skill rolls and clears up any ambiguity.

Also, in 7e, each skill in Chapter 4: skills has details of suggested opposing skills. You may want to use this a basis if you discuss this topic again.

Cheers

Mike
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Re: MUP 093 - Elbow Deep in Chickens & the Art of PvP Persua

Post by fox01313 » Sat Jan 16, 2016 1:12 am

Not sure if I heard this somewhere or it just oozed forth from various people talking about it. My take on PVP & social skills is the following: One player rolls persuasion/intimidation or whatnot as well as just summarizing it in a bullet point/sentence or two. The GM then takes this & based off the rolls/modifiers tells the other receiving player that the persuasive argument was good or junk depending on the roll. From there the player can still make up their mind on the social skill points from the one character plus the roll but the player doesn't have to follow it if he/she doesn't want to. I feel this way gets the social skills of the character in play along with the player to get to a middle ground. It's such a tricky subject as you can't really mind control other players but at times with the story it is better than the crazy ideas they are coming up with or just more dramatic & awesome at the time though it takes away that precious freedom of choice.
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Re: MUP 093 - Elbow Deep in Chickens & the Art of PvP Persua

Post by Mr.Green » Wed Jan 20, 2016 8:42 am

G'day MU'ers,

I enjoyed listening to this episode (and the others).

On social PVP, I agree with all that was said. I make the players roleplay a little to demonstrate an argument... then, judging on how convinced the player seems to be, I allocate penalty/bonus dice accordingly. This adds a level of difficulty, so that simple tasks, like "you should probably lead the team into the dark tunnel" could be more difficult than "you should probably lead the team into the pizza parlor".

Cheers,
Mr.Green :mrgreen:
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Re: MUP 093 - Elbow Deep in Chickens & the Art of PvP Persua

Post by fallingtower » Wed Jan 20, 2016 7:39 pm

MikeM wrote:PvP - see 7e Rulebook page 60 - Interpersonal Skills: Disambiguation.

This covers PvP social skill rolls and clears up any ambiguity.

Also, in 7e, each skill in Chapter 4: skills has details of suggested opposing skills. You may want to use this a basis if you discuss this topic again.

Cheers

Mike
Really loving the 7e rules. Yeah listening to the episode I thought i read something in the new rules and you saved me the trouble of looking it up Mike.
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Re: MUP 093 - Elbow Deep in Chickens & the Art of PvP Persua

Post by Dr. Gerard » Thu Jan 21, 2016 1:19 am

MikeM wrote:PvP - see 7e Rulebook page 60 - Interpersonal Skills: Disambiguation.

This covers PvP social skill rolls and clears up any ambiguity.

Also, in 7e, each skill in Chapter 4: skills has details of suggested opposing skills. You may want to use this a basis if you discuss this topic again.

Cheers

Mike
Yes, this guide is extremely helpful and we should have referred to it. A little rusty coming out of our long winter's nap.

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Re: MUP 093 - Elbow Deep in Chickens & the Art of PvP Persua

Post by Dr. Gerard » Thu Jan 21, 2016 1:22 am

And by the way, Brian from Mass gave us feedback mentioning the PvP guidance in the Player Handbook that we reference in the next episode. Interesting use of the penalty die, there.
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Re: MUP 093 - Elbow Deep in Chickens & the Art of PvP Persua

Post by SquamousStudios » Wed Jan 27, 2016 11:32 pm

Thanks for the mention on this episode! I do indeed have a ton of copies of Feed the Shoggoth! open for general purchase now. Until i get my online store running, orders can be sent directly to my badger@squamousstudios.com email address, and we'll get you taken care of.

If anyone is interested in /reviewing/ the game, they should get in touch with me as well.

Cheers!

-=Badger

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